Thanks a lot, Alan, for this detailed and comprehensive (if this ‚knot‘ can ever be covered ‚comprehensively‘) essay, really highly appreciated - it is your love and ‚Herzblut‘ for detail and humility that is so much needed in approaching this topic! I‘ve actually studied politics, and the political system of Israel had been one main focus; that said, I seriously learned even more from this essay of yours! Seriously, thank you!
Thanks Mel! I didn't realise Israel's political system was something you'd studied before, interesting (und ich freue mich, dass du etwas gelernt hast!) I agree; I'm not sure the knot could ever be entangled, at least as long as the Israeli Right holds sway domestically and Hamas hold sway in Gaza...although that may change soon.
Yes, I actually completed my "Magister Artium, Master of Arts" degree in politics (and American literature) some time ago, very interesting indeed! (Aber man lernt ja nie aus, Gottseidank, daher bin ich immer sehr dankbar für wertvolle und zuverlässige Quellen wie Deine Arbeit(en)! ❤️ :)) Looking forward to Part II of these 3amThoughts; while, yes, some things may change soon, but the Gordian Knot is really deeply ingrained..
That is interesting, my history (and English) degree was primarily focused on modern European history. And thank you...Immer lernen, und nie genug lernen!
Great - it’s obvious that you have a lot of knowledge (also) on history, and so on politics 🥹 (I wonder whether you ever thought about somehow ‚going back’ to history?). Und: Genau das, immer weiter lernen!
Nov 8, 2023·edited Nov 8, 2023Liked by Alan Flanagan
Many thanks for this Alan - so detailed and balanced. I wouldn't expect anything less from you ;) Could you recommend any books, podcasts or documentaries to further explore the history of this conflict?
Sure, happy to. Two of the books referenced in this: Tom Segev's 'One Palestine, Complete', and Hirsch Goodman's 'The Anatomy of Israel's Survival', I'd highly recommend. Ian Black 'Enemies and Neighbours: Arabs and Jews in Palestine and Israel', also.
For the current flare up, Graeme Wood's writing in The Atlantic has been relatively peerless, and Rory Stewart's podcast is also solid.
Thanks so much for this clear and concise history. While I knew the general outlines of all that you described, and lived through (from the U.S.) and remember some of the events starting with the massacre at Sabra and Shatila, I learned a great deal from your recitation of the history and your analysis.
Thanks Julie, I'm glad you did. The living memory part is interesting, because it's really over this period from Sabra and Shatila in particular that we can see the court of public opinion turn on Israel; some justified, some not.
I can’t imagine the mental gymnastics and time it took to write this down succinctly, but thank you. I’m not sure, but do you think it is relevant for the current situation to explain more about the earlier history? Canaanites/ Philistines? Seeing arguments on social media.
Thanks for reading, Amy. I thought about that and I really didn't think it was much more than a distraction. I've seen it online too, related to the American Leftist buzzword of "indigenous", and like much of the nauseating crap coming out of American Leftists on this topic, it's like listening to nails scrape on a blackboard.
Because history to them started about 250yrs ago, they think "who got here first" is some neat, easy delineation. Even if we can trace to "here first", just think about the sheer amount of peoples and empires that come through a place like that, and what it means for the shifting place of people on a land. Imagine, for example, trying to think about "indigenous" for Britain....Celts? Picts? Angles or Saxons? Danes? Normans? Lol.
In this case, it's a bit silly because even the concept of being Arab, or Islam itself, didn't even exist. It is only relevant insofar as being able to say that, historically, Jews were in and around this land. But the fact that the Jews were still there by the time of the Ottoman's was, for me, the best point of departure, because as stated in the essay, there is no such thing as "Palestine" as a far as some country that existed before and was "colonised" is concerned. This is just a fiction.
Thank you, this makes sense. There are a lot of distracting arguments and as an outsider it can be hard to decide what needs to be focused on. Social media feels very tense right now, with so much maddening misinformation and posts lacking any thought or awareness. I’m experiencing such from those types of leftists outside America :/
Thanks, Lys. I've actually just started the first few episodes of season 2 of "Empire", just on the rise of the Ottoman's and Constantinople, so haven't reached any discussion of historic Palestine yet; looking forward to it.
I drew heavily on the book, 'One Palestine, Complete' by Tom Segev for the parts about the history of the British Mandate; if you're interested, I'd highly recommend it, it is a very rich and detailed history of the period.
Thanks a lot, Alan, for this detailed and comprehensive (if this ‚knot‘ can ever be covered ‚comprehensively‘) essay, really highly appreciated - it is your love and ‚Herzblut‘ for detail and humility that is so much needed in approaching this topic! I‘ve actually studied politics, and the political system of Israel had been one main focus; that said, I seriously learned even more from this essay of yours! Seriously, thank you!
Thanks Mel! I didn't realise Israel's political system was something you'd studied before, interesting (und ich freue mich, dass du etwas gelernt hast!) I agree; I'm not sure the knot could ever be entangled, at least as long as the Israeli Right holds sway domestically and Hamas hold sway in Gaza...although that may change soon.
Yes, I actually completed my "Magister Artium, Master of Arts" degree in politics (and American literature) some time ago, very interesting indeed! (Aber man lernt ja nie aus, Gottseidank, daher bin ich immer sehr dankbar für wertvolle und zuverlässige Quellen wie Deine Arbeit(en)! ❤️ :)) Looking forward to Part II of these 3amThoughts; while, yes, some things may change soon, but the Gordian Knot is really deeply ingrained..
That is interesting, my history (and English) degree was primarily focused on modern European history. And thank you...Immer lernen, und nie genug lernen!
Great - it’s obvious that you have a lot of knowledge (also) on history, and so on politics 🥹 (I wonder whether you ever thought about somehow ‚going back’ to history?). Und: Genau das, immer weiter lernen!
Thank you for describing the complex history with such great detail!
Thanks, Alissa, I hope you found it helpful!
Incredible! Great work, Alan. Thank you!
Glad you thought so!
Many thanks for this Alan - so detailed and balanced. I wouldn't expect anything less from you ;) Could you recommend any books, podcasts or documentaries to further explore the history of this conflict?
Thanks Tom, much appreciated!
Sure, happy to. Two of the books referenced in this: Tom Segev's 'One Palestine, Complete', and Hirsch Goodman's 'The Anatomy of Israel's Survival', I'd highly recommend. Ian Black 'Enemies and Neighbours: Arabs and Jews in Palestine and Israel', also.
For the current flare up, Graeme Wood's writing in The Atlantic has been relatively peerless, and Rory Stewart's podcast is also solid.
Thanks so much for this clear and concise history. While I knew the general outlines of all that you described, and lived through (from the U.S.) and remember some of the events starting with the massacre at Sabra and Shatila, I learned a great deal from your recitation of the history and your analysis.
Thanks Julie, I'm glad you did. The living memory part is interesting, because it's really over this period from Sabra and Shatila in particular that we can see the court of public opinion turn on Israel; some justified, some not.
I can’t imagine the mental gymnastics and time it took to write this down succinctly, but thank you. I’m not sure, but do you think it is relevant for the current situation to explain more about the earlier history? Canaanites/ Philistines? Seeing arguments on social media.
Thanks for reading, Amy. I thought about that and I really didn't think it was much more than a distraction. I've seen it online too, related to the American Leftist buzzword of "indigenous", and like much of the nauseating crap coming out of American Leftists on this topic, it's like listening to nails scrape on a blackboard.
Because history to them started about 250yrs ago, they think "who got here first" is some neat, easy delineation. Even if we can trace to "here first", just think about the sheer amount of peoples and empires that come through a place like that, and what it means for the shifting place of people on a land. Imagine, for example, trying to think about "indigenous" for Britain....Celts? Picts? Angles or Saxons? Danes? Normans? Lol.
In this case, it's a bit silly because even the concept of being Arab, or Islam itself, didn't even exist. It is only relevant insofar as being able to say that, historically, Jews were in and around this land. But the fact that the Jews were still there by the time of the Ottoman's was, for me, the best point of departure, because as stated in the essay, there is no such thing as "Palestine" as a far as some country that existed before and was "colonised" is concerned. This is just a fiction.
Thank you, this makes sense. There are a lot of distracting arguments and as an outsider it can be hard to decide what needs to be focused on. Social media feels very tense right now, with so much maddening misinformation and posts lacking any thought or awareness. I’m experiencing such from those types of leftists outside America :/
I can’t wait for part two
I was hoping you would write on this. Much of it reitterating what I just learnt from the "Empire" podcast.
Thank you for taking the time, always appreciate your big picture perspective based in humility.
Thanks, Lys. I've actually just started the first few episodes of season 2 of "Empire", just on the rise of the Ottoman's and Constantinople, so haven't reached any discussion of historic Palestine yet; looking forward to it.
I drew heavily on the book, 'One Palestine, Complete' by Tom Segev for the parts about the history of the British Mandate; if you're interested, I'd highly recommend it, it is a very rich and detailed history of the period.
Thank you for reading the essay, I appreciate it.